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Tania Brown: Oh you're so well behaved. You've got time.

I'm waiting for a count in, just letting tension build. Thank you. Honoured guests, one and all, good evening. Welcome to GongTalks and tonight we're discussing the challenges women face finding financial freedom and housing stability in 2024.

My name is Tania Brown, I'm the Manager of UOW Local and I'm honored to be your MC for the evening. I start by acknowledging that Country for Aboriginal peoples is an interconnected set of ancient and sophisticated relationships. The ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp of ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp spreads across many interrelated Aboriginal countries that abound by this sacred landscape an intimate relationship with the landscape since creation. From Sydney to the Southern Highlands to the South Coast from fresh water to bitter water to salt. From City to Urban to rural. The ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp of ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp acknowledges the custodianship of the Aboriginal peoples of this place and space that has kept alive the relationships between all living things. The ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp acknowledges the devastating impact of colonialization on our campus footprint and commit ourselves to truth-telling healing and education.

I also acknowledge UOW Deputy Chancellor Warwick Shanks, OAM, who is with us tonight and also extend apologies from from Vice Chancellor Patricia Davidson. Tonight's event is brought to you with the support of Merrigong and UOW's Luminaries series which is usually online, so please be advised that tonight is being recorded and live streamed so we continue to share this conversation with a wider audience.

We've chosen our topic in recognition and celebration of International Women's Day. This year's IWD theme was Count Her In and we've had stories in the media over the last week on gender pay gaps and how we can accelerate change. And tonight we're delving into women's economic empowerment and the challenges around secure housing. As a single woman in the key demographic of over 55 the issue of economic empowerment and financial security is of particular relevance to me. I like many other women of my age had the wonderful opportunity to stay home and raise my two children before returning to the workforce. A situation I wouldn't change, but when I divorced at the age of 35 I had $22,000 in super and I feel like I've been playing catchup ever since. I share my story as I know this is not unique and the fear that women live with should their life situation change suddenly through divorce, ill health, lack of job security is very real and that slippery slope can come at you fast, so I'm very much looking forward to tonight's conversation.

And we're privileged to have an incredible cohort of local women address us and as well as the Sydney Morning Herald social affairs writer Caitlin Fitzsimmons who will moderate tonight's panel and our panelists are Professor Trish Mundy UOW Chief Integrity Officer, Sally Stevenson the Executive Director of the Illawarra Women's Health Center and SASI board member and Catherine Moyle, I've said it earlier sorry Gamilaroi woman and UOW Conscious Community lead. Unfortunately we have an apology from Rachel Foster from the Housing Trust who is enable to join us but fortunately the Deputy Lord Mayor of ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp is in the room and is able to step in so I will put another hat on we may have a costume change and I'll join the panel at very last minute so I will talk from a council perspective. But it is my pleasure to introduce Caitlin of our UOW alumni who will moderate our panel she's an award-winning journalist specialising in economics and social issues including housing and gender equality. In her varied career she's worked in Sydney London and San Francisco and as mentioned is a social affairs writer for the Sydney Morning Herald and the former Editor of Money. I'll hand over to Caitlin [Applause]

Caitlin Fitzsimmons: So smoothly done. Well good evening everyone it's a pleasure to be here um I'm going to throw first to Trish because she's going to set the scene for tonight's conversation by sharing some personal experience that I think everyone will find interesting and relevant.

Trish Mundy: I hope so um yes in thinking about you know what I wanted to share tonight because I know that we're we're talking about economic inequality, economic empowerment and housing stability in you know in 2024. But for me I thought that it would be really um important for me to set the scene I guess provide a bit of lived experience in terms of what has informed me and the work and research that I do in the gender equality space more broadly. So I am probably like some people I know here tonight, I I grew up in public housing in Mount Druitt in Western Sydney. I was interestingly my parents and my three siblings, you may or may not recall, they were relocated actually from the Rocks area and you may recall the in the 60s the green bans, they were looking to sell off all the public housing in The Rocks and so they were relocating everyone out into the suburbs you know a few hours away literally Mount Druitt was a farm at the time um and you know the likes of Jack Mundy (no relation) so Jack Mundy and you know the the unions at the time who really were successful in preserving all of the housing in Housing Commission houses in and around The Rocks at the time so we moved out to Mount Druitt about 3 weeks before I was born.

You know my parents eventually separated there was experiences of domestic and family violence and so after that you know we were a single parent household, four kids very much embedded in the poverty cycle so the beginning of the fortnight of the single parent pension, you'd be eating and towards the end of the fortnightly you know pension cycle you'd be having chips and potatoes because it was cheap and filling. So for me all of this very much informed my thinking around economic inequality and the importance of housing and the importance of all the issues that we're going to talk about tonight. And although it's absolutely the case that economic inequality and housing are issues for all women because there are structural issues that mean that many women regardless are experiencing the effects of a whole series of you know structural inequalities that impact them. But for me, I think particularly looking it causes me to look back at what are some of those really key social and public policies that really helped me and my family and certainly the people that I knew or some people that that I knew out of that poverty cycle. And for me they were the safety net obviously the financial safety net of a single parent pension there were free education in fact it was in the last uh semester of my study where they introduced HECS but before that really I was the beneficiary of free education we had uh a commitment to you know public housing that meant that you know we had a roof over our heads and although we see now a continuation of these really key things today with the addition of child support, with the addition of superannuation.

I really pause at you know um to say have we have we got them the right still because I feel like um in my practice as a lawyer for many years in the Women's Legal Center and in Community Legal centers more generally us you know working in the area of domestic and Family Violence particularly where women were separating, women children experiencing high levels of of poverty in fact women are more likely to um you know experience poverty post separation so I think for for men on average they're you know 5% decline in their income whereas women are more like 30% decline in their income post separation. We have you know public housing waiting lists of when I looked up um you know the public housing waiting list in January 2024 alone we had almost 60,000 people on the public housing waiting list in New South Wales so imagine that on a national scale. So for me um in in thinking about um what are the key you know what's the the key um drivers all of these things are going to be incredibly important and I know that some of our panelists are going to be talking about um these these things tonight. But it just felt for me my perspective on uh how I think about economic inequality and what's needed to address economic inequality and housing being absolutely key that my own my own past experience became really important.

Caitin: well thank you for sharing that it's so important to hear lived experience in these discussions I think because it can be become very abstract. If you don't mind me asking I'm interested to know what the trajectory was like for your mother after the children, your siblings and yourself grew up.

Trish: So she lived continued to live in Mount Druitt until she passed away. I was the only person uh in my family to have come to ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp to have gone to ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp but I you know so we each we each had different paths in in terms of you know my brothers and sisters. My Mum continued to live there on the pension until she passed away but she was and we were as a family the beneficiary of that that very early policy where you um you could actually they were selling they they sold public housing so the house that you lived in you had the opportunity to buy at very low interest rates. So you know I am so conscious of just how privileged in many ways we  were of some of those really key social and public policy that allowed us to get out of poverty that in some ways we've regressed I suspect. Now in many ways so we see the um you know the pension that really and all of the Social Security benefits not really having kept up with um with cost of living and we see you know long long wait lists in public housing, issues around child support and superannuation which I know we'll get into it. I think that um what was incredibly innovative and key at the time I don't know that we've necessarily kept pace with with what's needed in 2024.

Caitlin: Let's stay on that topic of domestic and family violence because it's a really key one to explore I think and Sally I wanted to throw to you because as a specialist in women's health you know you have a lot of expertise in domestic and family violence in you know how to reduce the prevalence and how to improve recovery and healing um for for women and I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Sally Stevenson: Thank you. If I may I'm just going to take a little bit off from um from Trish talking about the need for innovative and bold policy change because I think what you're talking about made huge difference to families and women in particular particularly single mums and when you mentioned that we've regressed. I agree and the way that that the things that we're talking about now these days are often important but small and I think we really need to consider what are the bold policy moves that we can make. I'd just like to have a think about the way that women's work is seen and valued globally. About 75% of unpaid work is done by women. That's caring, nurturing primarily, and what that means is that we're not valued. In this kind of economy that we live in when not valued. And a great example of that is when you look at what is in the national accounts which is the GDP and a great example of that is when you have baby formula. It's reflected because it's produced you know industrially. It's reflected in GDP when it's purchased at the rate of about $1 million in our national account and when you add in things like oat milk, soy milk, cow's milk they're all reflected in our national accounts but what's not reflected in our national accounts is breast milk. And when you value that when you cost it out and there are a range of ways that that is done when you look at the time the value of the product coming from our bodies and the reduction in disease that it is attributed to breast milk we're looking at a value of $3 billion, Now in our economy, our society and our capitalist kind of framework we need to be seen and we need to be valued and that needs to be explicit in our national accounts.

So I just think if we're really thinking about change and structural change let's really think about the kind of work that we do, the the way that women are valued, the way our bodies are valued and that brings me a little bit to um women's health because we know that women's health remains um both structurally and practically less than men's health in our society. We are more misdiagnosed, we have later diagnosis, we have delayed diagnosis, we're underdiagnosed. So women's health is always less than men's and that's across from diagnosis to research, to a whole range of things. And one of the greatest contributors in fact the largest contributor to women's health or injury illness and ill health between 15 and 44 is of course domestic family and sexual violence. So there are many threads and it's obviously you know there's long conversations to be had but I think what's really important to understand around the links between economy, financial independence, resourcing and valuing of women's bodies and women's work is that it infiltrates every part of our lives and we need to look at that both from a micro perspective but also from these bold macro policy perspectives.

Caitin: Well on that note, I mean I think everyone would agree that bold policy ideas are wonderful and needed. Do we have any to share that you know we want to kind of kick around the room, Maybe we can come back to that you can um have you know think about it in the back of your mind and we might come back to that at the end. But just throwing to you Catherine, I won't be too prescriptive in my question because I'll let you launch off with your what you want to say. But you know I think that there's intersections there with you know we've been talking about housing we've been talking about violence, we've been talking about you know women's health and valuing our bodies and I think there's intersections there with your work, talking about social capital and belonging. I would love to hear what you want to kind of contribute most tonight.

Catherine: Thank you. It's on that's okay sorry my eyesight's going and so I couldn't quite tell if I'd switched it on thanks sound people. It is such a privilege to be here with you all. I guess for me and my observation as well and experience walking alongside women who have been through some of these experiences as well what's been really obvious is that the issue is about more than just housing it's about more than just health, it's about more than just you know the economics and the way that we're valued. It's about our relationships as well and so often even, Trish, when you shared your story you know about the move from the Rocks you know and being pushed out of town and and there's a shift then in terms of and a disconnection then with the place that's held us and and has cared for us and where we feel safe and those social networks as well and so when it comes to those bold policy ideas remembering who's making them and who's pushing them which are generally males, a pale stale male and you're just generally as a general rule as well like that it's coming from an economical perspective so when you look at a lot of our politicians what their backgrounds are you know it tends to be in terms of law and economics and that tends to be the only way that they look at solutions.

From time to time I teach in social policy and I'm always advocating for our social work students in particular, I'm like, 'can one of you just take up politics please?' because we need to get more of that perspective in there but those social networks as well. So actually looking at the value of those networks and those relationships that they provide for people the safety and that housing is about more than just a home. Some of my observations as well around with relationships as they as they dissolve and disintegrate in the way that housing actually becomes a a weapon in the breakup and it plays into then around whether or not you can care for your children you know. It plays in in those ways and even just the way that all of these things come together right so um looking for rental property and a single female, a single mother looks very different on paper to a single male or to a couple. And so watching women that I you know love and respect struggling to get into housing let alone the whole cost of living side of things but actually getting through that door and it's taken things like connections. It's taken relationships, a colleague of mine who's a cousin of a real estate agent who managed to get somebody uh pre-approved so that all of a sudden they were down to just one of two people being put forward. And we need more of that sort of generosity not just from politicians, not just from government but also looking at the way that we all have responsibility for that. And that we're able to influence in our own spaces so those opportunities and really harnessing that.

Caitin: I think it's a really important point about community and you know where you live being the place that holds you and being the basis and the cradle for those relationships and you know you know while that was a really kind of striking. Your example, moving from The Rocks to Mount Druitt, because of a change in government policy, I see that happening because of economic pressures too you know younger people are constantly told just move further out. To move further away from your jobs but it's also further away from your family, from your friends, from your community from as you say that place that holds you um and I think that um you know as you say the well the women women's economic status is not equal to men's in 2024 in Australia. So that would have to be affecting women more than it is men and especially after a breakup but probably at any stage of life. It might be a good one to discuss kind of in the local context too because there's you know there's a severe housing shortage around um around the Illawarra you know, I'd like to hear about how that's affecting the women around here which I'm sure the audience tonight is also keenly attuned to.

Trish: Well I just might make one small point before we focus locally. I mean on the issue of you know separation and women who are experiencing domestic and family violence in particular that, with the fact that that you know we currently have locally .2% I think vacancy rate in terms of rental property availability which is unbelievable but I think increasingly what we're seeing because it is so challenging to get housing that more women end up staying in the family home at at risk. So they would like to leave and we are constantly telling people who are experiencing domestic and family violence to leave yet the reality is actually for many that is just not possible and I think there have been some you know peace meal attempts to support women to be able to leave but I don't know that we've really been able to achieve that and I suspect that is one of the the those big public policy things that we really do need to address. We need to get serious about how we how we do that and align the messages of you can do something and you can actually leave violence with the reality of how do you do that. But locally, Tania, would love to hear.

Tania: You know, I tell everyone that housing is not just one level of government's fault. Everybody points this way, it is three tiers of government that need to work together but if I look at some recent examples of where we need more housing stock in the region we have to take the community on that journey. There's been a big conversation lately about transport orientated development, building higher and more medium and high density around train stations it makes sense it's been planning policy for a long time but if you try and do that in Thirroul, and no disrespect to any dear people from Thirroul, you know that there is a a rallying cry goes up and the community says not in my backyard we don't want that. So setting policy it's very hard to bring more units online we know at the moment there is 1,974 units approved for development in the ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp LGA that have not started construction and that is because the cost for industry is going up. Concrete's costing more, labor's costing more so cost of living is impacted so it needs federal funding to try and get some of these things moving. As a Council, we've pushed for affordable housing percentages on new developments again look at the Corrimal Cokeworks and the push back from community rightly so on traffic and what increased density means and how that will affect the livability of their suburb um and we appreciate all that but as policy makers we have to try and deliver more housing stock for the region and it has to be a range of housing stock not everyone wants to live in a five-bedroom brick house. But not everyone wants to live in a duplex or a a granny flat but we have to have that range of stock that suits all those cycle of life needs.

And we need people who are sitting in very large homes to start downsizing and freeing up homes for families, that doesn't sit well with people who say I want to die in the house that I I lived in. So it is a challenge and it's not easily solved. I don't have you know big bold policy ideas because I know that if you come out with something too bold, for example, increased density, as a politician you're going to be attacked but sometimes you've got to do that. As a community we all have to work together to say this is a priority, we need housing we need affordable housing so that my kids can have homes here so that they don't have to move further out uh down South past Nowra these days. We'll have everyone living um south of Shellharbour that's not good for our community. We want people to be able to be here so that they have jobs that they're filling the employment that we need so I don't have all the answers unfortunately but it certainly is all levels of government have to work together on this. As a council we need to do more in releasing land that we have particularly in West Dapto. Council is not a developer they shouldn't be a developer but if they're sitting on land give it up and let the developers get on with the job again then we come back to 1,974 units not being built so the circle continues. How's that for conundrums?

Catherine: I think, can I just jump in? Sorry I do this a lot when I get a chance or a microphone so I think it's partly, it's not so much the big policy ideas but the big processes so changing the way that people work. We saw just a few years ago that the you know the Minister for Planning ended up having to make a effectively say between up in Sydney who was pushing back so the Council was pushing back around the way that land was going to be developed and state government wanted to develop in a particular way which went against. So we end up with these waring sort of interests effectively and local Council really does reflect the interest of community because that's where the direct touch points are so the process needs to change the way that different tiers of government come together and work collectively. One of my concerns in terms of our social housing stock in particular locally is that social housing tends to get shafted where nobody wants to be so I look at Bellambi and you know there was the sewage works there and now what I hear is that you know like people start to complain from outside Bellambi about this amazing location you know the beach front and and everything else we see it down at Port Kembla and the gentrification of the area.

We can't have these conversations without ensuring that we're not just looking at the gentrification of areas and the communities who were pushed there like people and families that were pushed into these locations and have lived there for generations now and have those places. It has to be done collectively with the whole of community at heart and the interest so that then our beaches side our beautiful beachside properties you know, locations aren't just sold off to the highest bidder at the cost of these amazing vibrant communities that support all members but women and children in particular, like The Rocks all those years ago. I think that it can be a really simplistic narrative to say you know the there's the NIMBY's and there's the not in my backyard that and I don't think it's that simple because I think on the one hand a lot of the reason for under supply is because there are developers who've got DA's in their back pockets all over the state who are not building because they know not to flood the market with their own product. And a lot of the so-called NIMBY's are you know some of them may be opposed to any and all development sure, I know those people do exist but there are also people who just want good planning, they're not opposed to more housing but they don't want to kind of wreck the natural environment and end up with kind of gridlock traffic and and I've seen, I'm not going to name regions but I've seen in other parts of the state that play out. So you know I think they're really complex issues and we like to simplify them sometimes. I'm not pointing the finger at you but go on I do want to give a shout out to one of the developments that's happening at the moment.

Tania: Housing Trust is a key part of that since I'm subbing in for the Housing Trust. They are building units right next door to Chicko's on Crown Street and that is building in social and affordable housing with just normal commercial tenants. I went to the the topping out recently of the construction and you know the Housing Trust will have I think it's 27 units in that development that they will manage for the residents which I think is wonderful but it's building those three levels into one units so that you can build a community and it's not Us and Them. Not everyone in one location so I'm really excited to see how that goes and I know the Housing Trust is trying very hard. I went to the, I got to dig the first sod out at Dapto at a range of units that are being built for over 55s women and for women who are escaping domestic violence so some great things are happening locally, we just need to do more. And that integration is so important in terms of breaking the intergenerational cycles of poverty that needs to be that integration within communities so it's not groups living in isolation it has profound benefits.

Caitlin: So Catherine was talking earlier about you know how hard it is for a single mother to get a crack in the private rental market it's something I've been looking at recently as well. I've heard that a lot of the time I mean of course it's difficult when there's the income if someone's living on you know a limited income and you know dealing with this crazy rental and cost of living crisis it's difficult for everyone. But I'm hearing that it's also the stigma factor that even when a woman has a really good income and can easily afford the rental property that she's being overlooked in favor of two people in one couple. And I don't know I don't know how much of that is because there's two people on the application instead of one or how much is the stigma factor of the single mother and the ideas that we might have around that but I'd love to hear from any or all of the panelists about that.

Catherine: I think also taking into account the trauma as well so that there's often trauma involved as well and so again in the examples that I know of there amazing women who are carrying and trying to heal from different traumas sometimes from past relationships sometimes from things that that have happened externally and so there's often also the extra layer then of in terms of own security around simple things like a dog you know the just having an having a fur baby in the area can make you feel so safe and so secure and that just adds another layer as well like there are all of these complexities does anyone else want to have a crack at that question.

Sally: I mean I would just underline the fact that it is single mums are discriminated against I think there's no doubt about it. I think it's it's an extension of the discrimination that women face as well but certainly in the housing market our experience at the Women's Health Center is that it's almost it's impossible I mean already the housing market is impossible but if you're single, if you've got children, if you've got limited income there is over discrimination. Add to that you know discrimination for Aboriginal people or for CALD women or for disabled women and you're just in an impossible situation so there are policy things that need to change but there are social and cultural views of women and the status of women that absolutely need to change. And I think you know there's so much work to be done around that and as I mentioned before it just that discrimination infiltrates into you know every aspect of our lives, we're talking about superannuation, we're talking about how that is split when relationships fall apart or there's violence in that we know that for realisable assets cash, buildings and so forth. If you've been the primary caregiver for children you would and you've stepped out of the workforce you'll generally get you know if you've got positive legal support a 60/40 split but superannuation you'll get a 50/50 split because it's an unrealisable asset already that's discriminatory against the primary caregiver who in most cases is a woman but another issue that's arisen recently in the Women's Health Center again about the way that health and financial independence intersects with violence is that if you've got superannuation if you're lucky enough to have it and you're able to get income protection through that mechanism if you have a history of mental health or seeking support for mental health as a consequence of the trauma that you've experienced from violence you can't increase your income protection. They won't do it, so you're always facing these barriers and these challenges as a woman who've who you know who has experienced violence what that means at every step. As you move away from the violence sometimes never ends you know you might have had a violent relationship 10 years ago you might have dealt with your trauma 10 years ago but you can't increase your income protection and there's a great saying that Yumi Lee who's the the CEO of the older women's network of New South Wales says is the choice that you were talking about Trish, is the choice between poverty and violence like, do you stay in a house that is violent and in many ways protect your children and accept violence, you know, as a way of protecting your children or do you leave and you know you can't get out of poverty by living in the back of your car? So there are many choices, not choices, but challenges that women have to face when they're looking at domestic violence and then it's not only facing the risk of violence in that relationship, it's the reality of violence and what that means to your health. So an interesting piece of research fairly recently was in Victoria where they looked at the presentations across a year of women who were coming into hospital with domestic and family violence experiences. 40% of those women had acquired brain injury through that violence and so where does that lead and how does that help you get to financial independence? How can you leave then when you become dependent? Also on your perpetrator so there are just so many aspects I can't overstress just how deep and broad and brutal our position is in society when we look at the intersection of health, housing, violence and the position of women and how we treat women in our society.

Caitlin: Well I think, I mean that really brings it home the impacts that violence can have especially you know thinking about the acquired brain injury and then the flow on effects that would have. I would just add as well that it seems to me quite difficult to get economic traction for a lot of women even when there's not violence that and I think it's important that we talk about that tonight as well. Just throwing to you Trish, I think you have some thoughts around the particular challenges that women might be facing in regional, rural and remote areas.

Trish: Yes I mean I I think broadly speaking that whatever challenges you know women experience they are exacerbated by you know distance, by the fact that there is you know just less choice in in services, in distance and access. I mean all of those but just if I can just shifting back to the point that you made before that the challenges experienced by women independently of violence so even in circumstances where they're not violent, where there's not violence you know we have issues where there are still issues impacting you. The gender pay gap being one of those so we see that, you know, all women are impacted in some way by the fact that, you know, they earning earning less, their are work is not valued in in the way that they are because of a whole range of you know gender inequality, workplace segmentation, their work is not valued, all of this creates, part of the picture, of the gender pay gap. So for me, you know even independently of whether you know, working or you're not working, the reality is that those structural issues, those gender issues are still impacting you.

Sally: And I would add to that, 100% agree, not surprisingly but when you look irrespective of violence it's about again how we are represented but also positioned in society and there's a very interesting book called Invisible Women, and it talks about how the world is designed around a man's body, you know just and more and more so as artificial intelligence is coded by predominantly men using big data sets and it more creates a world that doesn't recognise a woman's body. And a great example that is given is the way that cars are designed around a a standard male body of a 70 kilo white man. And what that means is that if a woman is in a crash, in a car so the safety elements are designed around this man's body and the the crash test dummies are designed around a man's body and there are five standard tests that are done and when there was pointed out that, you know, that the impact on the women's body is quite different certainly in Europe they changed the the standards and they added one for women, but the woman was the passenger. So that was interesting but the reality is that in a serious car crash women are 50% more likely to have a serious injury than a man and you only really have to look at kind of you know the distance where the airbags come out or the seat belt and how it would damage a woman's breast if she's put forward so it's these kind of unseen often unconscious biases that create health impacts for women that we really, if we step back and look through the gender lens do something about. So I just I find that kind of design of the world really interesting and something that speaks to the broader and the larger kind of considerations, so yeah I just I think that's quite interesting and that's a big issue in health in general isn't it. And it's also the devaluing of women's health and a classic example there of course is how we control our own bodies and in terms of financial independence or resources who can access abortion. Because right now in NSW, it's incredibly hard particularly if you don't have any money to get an abortion. You can't really get it through the public health system there are a few GP's probably about 10% in the Illawarra that will bulk bill but of course it's time sensitive. But otherwise an abortion will cost you $500 or $600 minimum. Where do you get that kind of money? And why do you need to get that kind of money when there's no medical support but if you have a child in the public health system which costs about $5,000 it's completely covered and of course the further out you go geographically the more challenged you are in terms of accessing these, you know, these sorts of services.

Catherine: Housing may well be cheaper the further out that you go however your income is likely to be a lot less relative to the housing costs, you have particularly in you know many Aboriginal communities the cost of actually of getting food in those communities is outrageous you know so yes, they're absolutely exacerbated you know the further out you go in terms of access and you know all of those elements yeah just picking up on Sally's point about the way that the world is designed around from a man's perspective. For example even when it comes to the reproductive system and it was only in the naughties that yeah believe it was in the naughties that you know that the textbooks were updated effectively when it came to genitalia because up until that point it had been based on studies that had been done by men hundreds of years beforehand like literally it was that old. I remember I was yeah when it came out because I was working in that space. But even when it comes to diagnosis so as a mother with some of my children are neurodiverse, and the the way that they're assessed is all based on the way that different characteristics actually present in males and so trying to advocate for my female children in the education system because the way that they're presenting doesn't actually fit the understanding of what different conditions look like. It is so difficult so challenging and then on top of that when you start to look at the comorbidity of different issues particularly around neurodiversity and mental health so different mental health issues as well that becomes a huge problem then in terms of having that taken seriously.

Sally: Yeah well and and certainly to add to that which was that we did recently, is being taken seriously in some diagnoses for example brain cancer, women have to go three times to a specialist to get the diagnosis that a man gets more or less at the first time but really what impacts in terms of diagnosis and discrimination is mental health and the pathologisation of women's mental health, women's trauma and you know we had hysteria 100 years ago and it's now morphed into predominantly BPD. So the way that we are dismissed, the way that our mental health is pathologised particularly when it's been a natural when the trauma behaviors and the trauma consequences are a natural response to the abuse and violence that women experience and yet we're told the anxiety and the stress and all the rest of it is a symptom of an individual, is really incredibly discriminatory and debilitating for women.

Caitlin: And that BPD is bipolar disorder, is that correct?

Sally: Borderline Personality Disorder.

Caitlin: Okay and so that all plays back to Sally's point before about income protection insurance, for example, if you show up, and it may not even be related to trauma, if you show up and you look for a mental health plan because you are stressed your struggling trying to make ends meet. You're struggling trying to explain to your children about why the relationship's dissolved, any of those things and that counts against you, because it it speaks to or is used to speak to the fact that you have a pre-existing mental health issue. I'm going to go to questions soon but um I was thinking when you were talking about how hard it is to you know get an abortion and so on that it's also very hard to get mental health support and neurodiversity, the diagnosis and and so on and that, you know, that might play into the income protection insurance thing that we were talking about earlier as well. It's absolutely circular but it's also about how those kinds of diagnosis or actually presentations can play out in an employment situation because I mean there's an absolute correlation, it's absolutely clear between, you know, financial security and health and being able to protect yourself against violence, but what we know and what we've seen locally is the situation where people, women present in the workplace, trauma behaviors, that can be quite challenging. One of the organisations that we're working with has identified that 80% of the breaches of the code of conduct have happened by people who are currently experiencing violence, so again, you get that discrimination because there's not a full understanding of what women are going through or what a natural response to the violence that we experience would look like and how that can be supported. So they may lose their jobs and then you're on that downward spiral very very quickly, so it's just to reinforce the need for understanding and recognition of the way women respond, what their health requires, the fact that it costs more to maintain our health because of the discrimination and the barriers that we experience and there's that absolute correlation between health, financial resources.

Caitlin: So I want to throw to questions from the audience and then at the very end I want to come back to you know given the the theme is counting and investing in women, then, you know, let's think about ways that we can invest in women and women with all sorts of diverse experiences and needs. But I'm going to need some light to see where audience questions are or some help to identify them because the the audience is quite dark.

Speaker: Hello everyone, my name is Yaan and I think one of the way we can invest in women is starting young in terms of financial literacy. Financial understanding - none of our school systems, even at ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp, really teaches us how to manage our money, how to invest, how to run a budget and that has to start young, and that has to start with it's not about being good at maths, it's about having cultivating an interest in your own finances in your own well-being and once we even get to the stage where all of you very intelligent women have spoken about it's already too late to backtrack to to get them to learn about that. You got to start young I would say even in primary school but definitely by High School. Both male and female should really understand how to manage their own finances, start investing, the younger they start the early they're going to be able to have a a good grasp of financial literacy and a good understanding of it and that will help them build that building blocks along the way. So that's the first thing I think invest young it start young and have that bold policy to have those programs in schools and at universities to teach young people like financial literacy. The second thing about housing the second part of it is we talk about your Council releasing land etc and being dependent on developers to slowly build and release because they don't want to release all the products etc and also right now build since co building costs have all gone through the roof it's really expensive to build a house especially a brick house but how about we start thinking about prefab houses and even 3D printed houses that could be built literally within minutes or a few days so housing does does have to be expensive. Housing doesn't have to, you know breaks, it literally can be in so many ways or even mud build houses in the past that has worked. But these days the technology has evolved and definitely 3D printed houses and prefab houses can be the answer for a lot of these affordable housing schemes and that has to be looked at and be part of policies.

Caitlin: I think there's some really interesting points there. I think we can take it more as a comment but I did want to respond on the financial literacy. I think teaching financial literacy is super important but I think sometimes and I'm not saying not directing this at you sometimes people talk about financial literacy as if it's a cure for structural inequalities and I think that is a trap that we don't want to avoid. I think they're both important but we shouldn't confuse the two and as for you know prefab housing and 3D printed housing and so on, I think you know some of that stuff is fascinating I was also at a conference today where they were talking about how in the States they have housing where you buy a house and you own the house but the developer owns the land and you rent the land on a long-term basis. The problem in Australia is that the banks don't give mortgages for that so you know there are lots of interesting ideas innovative ideas both with you know materials but also with finance and so on that can you know boost housing. Are there any other questions? Can we try to keep the questions concise

Speaker: So what I was just wondering is normally when we kind of problem solving or finding a solution to a problem, one of the first things you do in any project is go well what are the parts that are non-negotiable whether that's the system you have to work with the legislation the policy that's the sort of part that you can't control and then you have to kind of look at the piece you can control. And how we actually solve the problem. What I'm wondering is for something this complex and this huge we actually have to control that piece and we we have to sort of picking up on something Cath said which is how do we incentivise people with lived experience, people with the passion, people with with the sort of social lens to get into these spaces and actually be working on policy, working on legislation. What do we actually do to incentivise them and how do we make those spaces safe for them to do that without burning out.

Tania: I would just say it's difficult because you do have to be resilient. As someone who put a rainbow crossing in this town and has been vilified for it and told to take my gay son and leave. You do need to build resilience and I I despair of encouraging young women even to get into local government because if you put your head up it's going to get blown off and you just got to wear that. But some of us just have to do that I think it's we can also do it in ways that are a little bit more subtle and so we had a conversation about this this morning about being subtle in our approaches and you were that was very subtle thanks.

Catherine: But in terms of actually just reminding politicians that they represent a group, you know, and so the more that we share as as much as we feel safe and comfortable to do so the more that um be they indigenous issues or women's issues or you know different sectors of community the more that we sort of speak up and out and that we start setting the scene around what our expectations are, the more that those that are elected into positions will either reflect us or will at least pretend like they're interested in our issues and start making some movement there. This change takes generations you know this is over the last 20 years even that the focus has shifted so much and I joke because I've got silver hair so I can say that. So in the last 20 years you know there's been this shift in in the way that politicians even speak so we've we keep getting told that we need to focus on our individual benefit so you'll get a $500 tax you know like you'll get a $500 rebate. What you don't get all 500, you know, so continuously starting to sort of being pushed to think as individuals instead of as a collective and some of those big policies that existed in the past. I was a HECS baby but so the some of those big policies were actually about collective impact and collective benefit so the more that we start sort of just all over the place that that we introduce financial literacy. But also as a mother that my responsibility is to model that for my for my children as well it's a bit like, you know, the mess that we're in environmentally and caring for Country, that it's not enough to say well I'll wait until next generation and they can pick it up and fix it. We start now within, you know, the sphere of influence that we've got and whatever that is for some people that may be tiny, you know, like that may just be looking after themselves because of the situation that they're in and for others. And in the ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp, we've got some amazing leaders, you know, and some changes that are coming that come through that start to actually look at equity issues around promotions to try and create and facilitate pathways for people into those spaces so that things can start to reflect more accurately.

Speaker: Trish before I ask my question Trish, I'm circling back to your first point. I'm an incredibly proud first in family and I thought that my access to ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp education would not only change my life but would change my children's life. I paid HECS but a very small amount of HECS. I now have two children that is my thing saying I'm nervous because I'm talking on a microphone, now saying they don't want to go to university because they don't want the debt and so I have one daughter that's just finished year 12, and one doing it this year and neither of them have any intention of going to ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp because they do not want a $50,000 debt. So how do we make the transformative impact of education with the people in power?

Trish: Fantastic point because I I believe one of the big bold moves that we need to do is to really talk about what are the fundamentals which is housing, education and you know an income and actually think about how do we want to spend our public purse. And really think those fundamentals of are really key to me. I guess what I will say is, you know, we have a couple of weeks ago the government releasing the universities Accord a report and one of the things that speaks to me in that report is an increase and are looking at some strategies around how we can increase the participation of equity groups and I think that's really important. It does have some interesting initiatives and funding strategies in there that I think is important but you know to me, I think it is an absolute real issue with people not wanting to incur that debt and it is absolutely something that we definitely want to look at. The Australian government has actually through this universities Accord review process I think addressed some of those issues, gone a little way to address some of those issues but I do think we need something a bit larger scale and if I may just comment also on your point Sally, and give a plug to my colleagues in the Law school, Cassandra Sharp, Nan Sefor and Sarah Alwood who are collectively working on a really interesting research project that they've been laboring away for a few years which is called Law Listening and Domestic Violence. Apologies if I misread that but the core of it is that we have these law reform processes where we have consultations with people about how the law is working, how it's not working what are some recommendations for change. And we get people to you know write in, submit, give evidence before parliamentary committees about what needs to change but actually often that doesn't translate into implementation of that and so their their project incredibly interesting is around this idea that, and they're focusing particularly in the space of domestic and family violence, is that along with that when you call for contributions and consultation that with that comes an obligation of listening in a trauma informed way, listening in a way that actually takes on board that lived experience as the central piece and this is what I love about the work of salary and the Illawarra Women's Health Center is the valuing of lived experience from the center and how and how we move out from that and I think that is something we absolutely need to do is value lived experience for its own self. Something that I know that Sally and the health center can talk about very much but I just wanted to give a plug for that research project because that is the very core of what they're trying to say, what are the obligations when you call for that and how do we incorporate lived experience in a trauma informed way to bring about reform that actually makes a difference on the ground.

Caitlin: I think the barriers to going to ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp are, not just the debt which is horrifying but also just the the cost of living and the university experience now being about working every spare moment to keep you yourself fed and a roof over your head and I think there's a lot that is lost in the ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp experience from that.

Trish: Yes we see ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp as a cost rather than an investment and I think that's that's the problem.

Sally: The same can be said for health absolutely and I you know and just to kind of build on what you've what you've both said Cath is that let's move away from that neoliberal, individualistic perspective and move back into the greater good because we know from a public health, public education perspective that delivers dividends way beyond anything that we're able to do from an individual perspective and also let's not take no for an answer because you know certainly working in women's health, it's always underfunded and we're told well there's not enough money there's not enough money for domestic violence etc etc etc not true. We're one of the richest countries, in the richest time in mankind's history, we can choose to invest in health and education, we can make those choices, we've got that money but it's a priority that we need to accept and pressure our governments into making. Are there any more questions out there?

Speaker: Hello, I'd really like to thank the panel for their insights tonight. There are some things that I didn't know about that you guys discussed. I just wanted to talk in terms of affordable housing, I think as a young person who's really at the mercy of this rental crisis when I'm reading conversations in the media about increasing housing supply and affordable housing schemes, I often wonder for who it's going to be affordable for and for how long, so I wanted to ask the panel how would you define affordable in terms of affordable housing and how do we ensure that lower income earners have access, lasting access to affordable accommodation?

Tania: I think it comes back to that point before about the range of housing stock, not everyone needs a big brick house, whether it's 3D printed cabins. I think there's more likelihood that we'll get houses, we're looking at Fonzi flats that are included in ÁñÁ«ÊÓƵapp's housing strategy, granny flats. We just have to be more adaptable and open to those different ideas. But also we then need to push developers to deliver that range of housing stock. You don't want to go out as you do sometimes in suburbs and it's you know the little boxes every house looks the same we've already got a bit of that out at West Dapto so trying to encourage that. I do despair of throughout, anytime a house is sold it's torn down and a duplex is put up. We're not going to solve a housing crisis with a duplex.

Caitlin: What's a fonzy flat?

Tania: Uh like above a garage it's not just we all want to know it's my job to ask, I think of it as fonzy from Happy Days where he lived above the garage, so it's a that's a fonzy flat, so it's not a technical term.

Catherine: There's an issue as well with the expense of property in general right, so it's not even just affordable compared to the you know like the median price of property in in the northern suburbs is whatever ridiculous price you know anyway. But there are really significant issues with the way that how like or what with what housing costs renting is and but even the building, the construction of of properties and that's where the different tiers of government really need to step up and stop pointing the finger.

Caitlin: I think there is an actual technical definition of affordable housing. It's considered that you're in either rental or mortgage stress or housing stress we could say when it's more than 30% of your income and I believe that affordable housing is meant to be so that it's under that 30% for people who are in who are key workers in key industries like your teachers and your police officers and your nurses and so on. So affordable housing doesn't necessarily mean affordable for someone on a very low income they're more likely to be one of the 60,000 people on the social housing list and not getting it and it's yeah it is a different thing there was one more question it was there in the middle with the black and white shirt.

Speaker: Um so look there's many levels where this many problems there has been for decades there's more money needed there's all sorts of levels but the thing that's coming to my mind tonight is it's about our community of normal people, women and men, and where we are in our connection with each other. I don't think many people here actually really know what it would mean to be homeless, I mean really understand it and I think somewhere we're been conditioned from probably a number of generations that that could never be us. Those people could never be us even domestic violence and situations where women are in which they cannot get out of for many reasons I think many of us actually think that could never be us. Not consciously but unconsciously and I think that we don't have enough connection I think we have a cultural crisis sociologically. I don't think we have a connection with each woman and man on the street that we should be outraged. My personal experience of long-term unhoused is often I describe as government sanctioned torture now we can scroll through our Facebook every week and be absolutely outraged about what's happening in Gaza or in Papua New Guinea, in many other places but for some reason most of our community cannot really connect with this deep outrage of what's happening to our own people every single day. I don't need to be worried about bombs dropping on me or being short because I could possibly kill myself and I'm speaking metaphorically a bit but many people in these experiences either are being murdered every day by domestic violence or we will end up killing ourselves or dying of illnesses that could be preventable because we're in a system that is not addressing it. And it has not been for decades and yes we need funding for this and we need funding for that but I think we also need as a community to be connected to every single person in this room and every person on the street. Our sisters and our brothers to actually feel the outrage of what is really happening in this society we are killing our own people [Applause]

Caitlin: I think that social connection piece is so important I mean it it goes to the heart of what we've been talking about here but so much else as well, the loneliness and mental health crisis you know the talked about spoke about caring for Country briefly before like if we feel connected to each other that's a great start if we feel connected to the planet that we live in on all the other beings in it that would be amazing as well um but is does anyone want to have some parting thoughts. It feels like a powerful moment to end on. I'm happy to kind of just wrap it up with a bow if someone wants to add something.

Catherine: Thank you so much for that, and so much of what we've talked about and the situation that was just described is it is the product of us continuously being sort of fed this idea that we are individuals and just that erosion of social capital and those connections with each other and with place and so the single most subversive thing that we can do because I am a seditionist is to to actually, as you've said, to maintain those connections and to care and to speak up on behalf of or to speak up when somebody who can't and to make some noise. I know some of you like to make noise some of you and so do that. So thank you so much for that I think that you've just set our mission individually and collectively.

Caitlin: I want to thank all my panelists and my lovely audience and I'll throw back to Tania to wrap things up.

Tania: Thanks to the panel, thank you Caitlin, Trish and Catherine, thank you all for coming along and joining us tonight and I also want to thank those male champions of change who are here with us tonight uh very much appreciate you all being here. Our next GongTalk is on the 2nd of July and we'll look at how to detect and protect yourself against scammers. So please put that date in your diary and I hope you can come along. Can I thank Pippa and Ashley and Clare and all the team who helped put on tonight. Thank you very much I hope you've enjoyed the night and we'll see you again soon, thank you.